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Lukien

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Lukien last won the day on January 10

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  1. The player retention issue is two-fold. Burnout from those players who are at the endgame grinding their gear, and new players looking at the end game gear figuring out how much time and effort is needed to be put in for these pieces of gear. Comparatively, let’s just look at pure zeny farming IF these pieces were to come into the market for sale. You are looking at 100+ hours of farming magma 2 at 2mil/h to get 4 pieces of gear. This is ignoring the other slots entirely.
  2. Edit: Please note that this is not a suggestion post, but rather a analysis of the current system and some of its shortcomings. I am hoping this post motivates discussion surrounding the end game content of r0. Alright, so after several months and seeing how the poring instance has become a point of contention among players here I wanted to take a realistic analytical and mathematical look at the poring instance and expedition gear as a whole to give people a better idea of the benefits and negatives of the current setup and hopefully get a constructive discussion moving on potential improvements that could be made that would benefit the server as a whole. I will break this down into a few key issues first and then expand into a mathematical analysis of expedition gear and the requirements. First: The poring instance itself is a "low level" content area which is completely necessary to our current top available end game gear. Now speaking as a player who has played RO for nearly 15 years off and on this sends up red flags. The level 60 cap on the instance has both positive and negative implications. The positive implication is it allows newer players with very little gear to grind out a significant amount of zeny with minimal effort once a day per character in that range. The Negative and reality of it is the server population is not nearly high enough to support the demand of the Jello Stones from newer players alone. In fact the vast majority of Jello stones and fragments that come on the market come from a handful of players who have an army of lvl 60 characters they farm the instance with daily or at least on the most profitable days. This causes massive burnout both leveling a army of low level characters and running the same instance content over and over again causing a significant drop in player retention. Second: The experience issue comes up every time poring instance is brought up in discussion. The need to clear your experience bar every time you run a character through the instance so you don't over level them is poor game design. The simple solution would be to remove the exp from the instance or lessen it greatly to help relieve this issue but that would directly affect players who actually wish to use the instance to gain significant amounts of exp on a daily basis to assist in leveling alts for low time investment. The more complex solution would be to allow players to turn off their exp gain via a NPC or have a NPC that removes all current exp gained for their current base level. Neither solution is great and both have their flaws, but the issue of players mindlessly suiciding armies of alts to be able to re-run the content needs to be addressed. This just adds to the time sink that is farming the instance which no one actually wants to have to do. The easiest solution may be to just raise the level cap to lvl 70 or 75 as the exp gained in the instance would allow players to run a handful of them before having to "reset". Third: On kRO jello stones/fragments are largely obtained from the Gelstar Lottery which turns RMT directly into Zeny. Meanwhile in r0 the Zelstar Lotto results in untradeable consumables. This has caused a significant lack of outside sources of fragments. Yes you can get Jello stones/fragments from the lotto, or at least we have been told you can, after turning in well over 500 Zelstars I have yet to receive anything other then a consumable or discount ticket from the Zelstar lotto so I cannot confirm this other then stating the rates of non consumables is far to low. The current Valentines day even has a trade in of 300 "x" hearts (x being stone, burning, immortal or wooden) for a chance at a random jello stone, 5 fragment box, or rather useless chocolate box. This can be done up to 5 times per day. This was both a interesting and viable option for farming jello stones and I feel needs to be expanded upon if the current poring instance stays the way it is. Allowing players another (albeit potentially slower means of farming stones) needs to be addressed. The concept of the Zelstar Lotto was supposed to include fragments at a decent rate but that has simply not been the case. Forth: The daily rotation of jello fragments causes bursts of people doing the instances on the most profitable days and ignoring it the rest of the week. I for one, only ever run poring instance on the Sunday night to Monday night transition as I can run the instance twice with each character I can. Once after midnight on Monday morning before the 4am server instance reset, and once after. This effectively doubles the number of characters I have to run the instance for the particular fragments I need. I have little to no motivation to run the instance any other day of the week because it doesn't benefit me at all. This again is poor game design. It supports playing for several hours to get the most done possible at one point in time and then ignoring the content the rest of the week because it no longer applies to you. With that in mind lets take a look at what is needed to actually make a full set of Tier 1 expedition gear: Body Armor: 10 stones, 50 crimson/azure/shining crystals, Needs to be +9 to be viable (the average pieces of gear needed to make a +9 is roughly 6 using Enriched to +7 from 4 and HD for +8 and +9) So for a +9 that is 60 stones and 300 of each crystal on AVERAGE to get a +9. Boots: 9 stones, 50 crimson/azure/shining crystals, for the +27 refinement bonus on the set assuming you have a +9 chest this can be left at +7. Average to make a +7 is slightly less then 50% but for ease call it 50%. So 18 stones, and 100 of each crystal. Garment: Same requirement numbers as boots and should also be +7 for the refine bonus of 27. 18 stones and 100 of each crystal. Accessory: 19 stones, 50 of each crystal. Due to the stone requirement being so high I suggest leaving your accessory at +4 to get the refinement bonus (9+7+7+4=27) Total AVERAGE requirement to get a singular full set together: 115 stones, 550 of each crystal. edit: this would put the average cost with refining considered as well for a full tier 1 set at +27 refine to be somewhere in the range of around 170mil (based on 1mil per stone, refine costs of 40mil for the +9, 3mil average for the +7s, and 5k per each crystal) This does not include the cost of rolling enchants which can get excessive very quickly if you are aiming for a specific enchant on all 4 pieces of gear. Expect another 40mil+ for enchanting, likely more then that for excessive min-maxers. For a SINGLE characters end game gear setup assuming the average number of fragments received from each instance is around 3.5 (this number may be incorrect and is a assumption based on both personal experience and what other players have told me their average numbers are) you would need to run a total of 164.3 poring instances or 165 poring instances to make your gear for one character. This is in addition to the instances needed to run to obtain the crystals. Now assuming you are running poring instance at a fairly decent pace and clearing the instances in around 8 minutes that is nearly 22 hours of poring instance, just for one component of the gear required. Conclusion: We have multiple sources of game burnout here, the content is not repeatable without significant effort, it is not rewarding outside of endgame gear and needs to be run at low level to be run at all. If the GMs wish to address player retention and why players are coming in and not sticking around: This. Poring instance is daunting and not fun. No one wants to run it over and over again to try and make their refined pieces of gear. The entire mechanic would be completely fine if the server had 5000 players on it and a thriving market which could support this sort of content, but at some point the GMs have to recognize that we don't and likely never will have that size of a community. Address the issues and hopefully keep this server from falling into oblivion.
  3. Currently in game the requirements to get a expedition ring tier 2 is 6 holy jello stones and tier 1 is 10 holy jello stones. On the wiki it is listed as 9 for tier 2 and 6 for tier 1.
  4. Lukien

    Patch Notes 1.94

    the harm is purely economic. With items listed including jello stones and zelstars from Juliet it would potentially be a significant hit to the economic stability on the server and cause significant surplus of those items for very little investment. Edit: that being said... if anyone actually had access to juliet it would be nice..
  5. Lukien

    State Of The Game I

    Alright, So I figure I will put out my thoughts on this as I have more or less stepped away temporarily from the server to play other things. Certain decisions have left a bad taste in my mouth as of late. Things like the release of the "guild monthly rewards" which give guild a reason and incentive to recruit as many people regardless of whether or not they intend to actively include them in guild activities or not. It also encourages players to go to the largest guild they can to increase their rewards, because why start a new guild when you can join that other guild and get free stuff every month. This is a issue and will cause further imbalance the longer it stays in the game. The release of guild dungeons, content which is far to difficult to be efficient for new players as the only source of the PVP gear and likely the best gear for WoE. The issue here is the time investment needed for a player to successfully complete a set of this gear is insane. On top of that, these sort of items are and should be obtained solely through PVP, not through PVE for PVP. If you want BGs to be active, there needs to be a reason to participate in BGs. Speaking of BGs, other then the first week I have not been able to get into a single BG since, They are largely left unpopulated due to the number requirements for them. Potentially look at altering one of the BGs to be 3v3 and immediately allow party queue. This would incentivize small groups to get together and compete. The release of WoE during a time in which the population is on a turn slide was poorly timed. I understand that the goal was to get it out as soon as it was available, but as we have seen 1 guild has been actively participating and thats it. There is no competition for castles what so ever. The times need to be looked at to bring more players into the fold. I would suggest looking at server login data to see when the most players are online consistently and setting up times relevant to those players. The original times were set up to be BR friendly as the BR population was a large number of the player base, but 90% of that population has moved elsewhere leaving the rest of us wondering why the times were decided in a poll rather then looking at server data. All in all the server is not in a stable place at the moment, but the goal should not be to bring in fresh bodies or bring back those who have quit. Focus on correcting and fixing the systems that are in place right now to better the server for those who are still actively playing. Over time, the new players will come and the old players who quit might come back, but in order for that to happen to population needs to stabilize and the only way that will happen is correcting some of the issues with the current in game systems that are apparent.
  6. Lukien

    State Of The Game I

    Not to call you out, but in what way was the decision by the GMs to follow the rules as stated and to give out bans as a result impatial? If this had been occuring to a newer player and not a veteran player should those players not have been banned? @Ihsan In regards to the minato comments, those comments were not made in the server discord. Those were made on a separate discord in which a player felt the need to go in and screen shot posts that were taken out of context to shed minato in a poor light. Regardless, he hasnt been playing actively on the server basically since he stepped into GMing as the community go between GM.
  7. 20 champion KPH would be farming out a champion every 3 minutes. On some maps that is likely lower then what is possible. So in theory, it should be possible to get 25-30 champions an hour spawned on a map like orc dungeon or poison spores. Some maps are just obviously better to farm for these than others. Putting the rates too high makes those maps way to strong.
  8. Alright so I am making a post here to get community feedback on the Zelstar system. As it is currently it is pretty obvious that the rate in which we are obtaining Zelstars is simply not enough. These have had little to no impact on the server economy at this point due to their rarity. So I have come up with 3 potential solutions which all net the same benefit: more Zelstars. This post is not a place to argue for or against adding more sources of Zelstars, but rather tweaking the current source to get players feeling rewarded in its current itteration. After some testing on average I feel 20 champion mobs per hour is a decent benchmark for tuning these drops. If someone is actively farming low level champions for these boxes this is likely around the number of champions they will be able to spawn in an hour. So I am using this number as the basis for tuning the system. Option 1: Increase the drop rates to 15/17.5/20 (depending on champion level) and change Zelstar boxes to contain 3-5 Zelstars. (20KPH)(0.15)((3+5)/2)= An average of 12 zelstars an hour from low level mobs. Option 2: Increase the drop rates to 25% from all champions. Change Zelstar boxes to 1-4 zelstars. (20KPH)(0.25)((1+4)/2)= An average of 12.5 zelstars an hour from farming champions Option 3: Increase drop rates to 40% from all champions. Change Zelstars boxes to 1-2 zelstars per box. (20KPH)(0.40)((1+2)/2)= An average of 12 zelstars per hour. Option 3 would net the most consistent rewards and least RNG dependant, while option 2 and option 1 have a higher potential zelstars per hour for someone who got lucky on drops/boxes. The numbers can be tweaked again if these still feel to low of rewards. Edit: note the current rates are 5.1/6/7.2 and a roll of 1-5. This would put the current average at 20kph at 3.06 zelstars an hour.
  9. Hands down yes. if anyone has tried to spawn GR/DR will likely agree.
  10. Lukien

    Refining

    @Taz The same result of cheaper refines could be achieved through access to enriched ore via my above suggestion. This would result in new players not only having access to a +4 via enriched but also give them items to sell on the market to veteran players with consumables and other items being included. More access to the player market for more players achieves the same result as safe refining does without the need to cut down other people’s hard work. I am arguing there is a better solution, not that there isn’t a problem. Safe refine is simply a short term fix on a issue with market access. New players feel like they can’t make money without grinding harpies or mag2. Therefor breaking a item going to +3 feels bad. But if a new player had access and the ability to farm something that all players want, then access to the market is achieved. This is just not the right fix. edit: normally market access is gained via mid tier gear, blue/white herbs and misc crafting materials. But due to the nature of how easy it is to farm mid tier gear, blue/white syrups existing, and the best gear being high end crafted gear these avenues are not viable. edit2: ima just leave this here @Hades “This is a core mechanic we will not change.” Sounds pretty definitive to me... many of us refined our gear in the first place due to this statement. Can’t say it was due to community size either, at that time we were smaller then we are now.
  11. Lukien

    Refining

    @Taz your evaluation on the economic impacts are simply incorrect. Currently the rate to get a +7 with enriched is 43.2% but for simplicity’s sake we will say 1/2 attempts. Currently that puts a +7 at a NPC cost of an average of 7mil not including the Elu used. The removal of the 2mil per attempt drops the cost by 4mil and a total of 32 elu. Not only will this drive down the price of things like elu and ori but it will directly impact all those who already have gear. Looking at +9, the rate of getting a +9 from +7 is roughly 1/3 using HD ore. Which means for every 3 items at +7 you can expect to get one on average to +9 while the other two bounce back to +6 and fail to +7 again. Just in the base +7 cost you are losing 12 mil zeny from NPC zeny sink, this is per +9. Now looking around there are several people with full sets of +9. That means their gear immediately on this being introduced is devalued in the range of 80-100mil. So because new players feel entitled to +4 gear, veteran players time and effort is devalued by 80-100mil at the flick of a switch? Seems right to me... other options are available. Safe refine isn’t the only solution. Safe refine exists in enriched ore, making those more available to players is the solution and creating a player based economy driven by Ore and Consumables should be the goal. I agree the new player experience right now is shit, but giving the middle finger to those of us who put in the time and effort isn’t the solution. @Diablo that shits not necessary, keep it civil. Regardless of the decision that is made a proper poll needs to be made with all the options laid out. Not just a yes/no to safe refines.
  12. The introduction of this type of mechanic would be reliant on the removal of gelstars from the cash shop. He is not suggesting a p2w model at all. More another way of farming something relevant to players that will drive the economy.
  13. This item is the primary limiting item to make the headgear. Everything else is just a matter of farming the mobs to get the items necessary. Wildcard is literally the only RNG to make the headgear. The current rate is fine considering the headgear is by far the best middle headgear for a lot of classes. In comparison the only other middle headgear which is comparable is the Vesper headgear which requires 100 vesper memories, 10 venatu cards and a flame heart. This current rates are fine as they are.
  14. But the quest is just obtaining the items. your suggestion literally just makes it easier.
  15. Correct, it’s not a mvp card. But the headgear it makes is stronger then several mvp cards. This is litterally the single best middle headgear in the game and should not be easy to get. Arguably the drop rate is a but low but even then I know of several people who have already finished the headgear.
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